Heaven, Hell and God

Contradiction

Published on August 11, 2004 By olikara In Religion

I am thinking out aloud here.

All the major organised religions believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell. Of course versions of Heaven vary with Christians believing that he/she who reaches heaven will be one with God. The Muslims have their sex with 42 black-eyed virgins, rivers of milk and honey and stuff like that , but then I believe that will also be fun.

But then, isn't God supposed to be an all forgiving divine power? Why should there be a Hell at all, given to believe that hell is one place where you will be flayed alive and then drowned in a tub of boiling water and live still! There could be snakes there too.

I mean when a man lives in this world for an average of say 75 years which is but a blink of God's eye, should the poor chap be punished for eternity for something that God could have prevented him from doing in the first place.

But then conscience is a bastard, it riles you and cusses you for what it did not have the strength to stop you from doing in the first place. I don't know........

Comments (Page 1)

JeremyG

on Aug 11, 2004

Western religions never make sense because they were made popular by their ability to control the populace. They're long departed from spiritual organizations, and are rather political ones.

AndyBaker

on Aug 11, 2004

Olikara, a good blog, and you show how easily fundamentalism can be lampooned. I personally believe that our religious revelations reflect deeper, spiritual truths, and also that not everything that our religions preach are aligned with the 'Whole Truth'. Our religions are man-made 'frameworks' which attempt to embrace and reflect the deeper truths of Ultimate Reality. I believe that God exists, that life continues after death, and that we exist for a purpose. That's pretty much the heart of most religions. The rest is detail, in my opinion. I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in Hell or the devil.

They're long departed from spiritual organizations, and are rather political ones.

Very true. But the spiritual essence of our religions, and the deeper messages which they promulgate can be re-captured, I believe. Give it time, and they'll be percieved as rational organisations again.

Zoologist03

on Aug 11, 2004

Hmm....makes you think....I guess we'll find out when we die, huh?

~Zoo

Lord Shitzu

on Aug 11, 2004

In Terry Pratchett's Diskworld (hilarious satire of fantasy novels) books, when people die, they go wherever they believed they would. Which is hardly fair if you were an awful person but truly believed you deserved to spend the rest of your time with the aforementioned virgins, or if you're a good person but are awful hard on yourself and think you don't deserve too much.

A more interesting view is the thought that people create their own afterlife somehow but those who have done wrong, whether they actively acknowledge it or not, end up having their guilt, even if subconscious, consume them, and create their own punishment. This seems like a much more fair approach, especially if they are given the chance to forgive themselves eventually. I'd much rather let my own conscience judge me than some bearded man in the sky who wants me to go to hell just because I don't believe in him.

From a logical standpoint, if an afterlife exists, or even a God, I would say the above would be the only contingency where God could truly be fair.

AndyBaker

on Aug 11, 2004

Lord Shitzu, my beliefs echo yours regarding the afterlife. I think that when Eastern and Western beliefs are merged, we find a fuller picture of the true nature of reality. Eastern wisdom teaches that "we are God". Western religion teaches that we are "children of God". These two teachings don't necessarily contradict. After all, it could be said that we are "sparks" of God', i.e. deep down, we are individualized bundles of energy, created by 'the One'. It's all the same energy, ultimately, so it could still be said that we are God.

I believe that when we die, we retain our individualized self-awareness, and that we will be judged only by our own God-given conscience. I also believe that somewhere down the line of the Infinite, an Ultimate Awareness exists. (i.e. the Godhead). Basic Western beliefs and theistic wisdom teaches that God possesses infallible knowledge of everything. I personally don't find this hard to believe.

Incidentally, I find that the most attractive thing about Western religions, such as Christianity, is that they teach that the Truth can be understood by nothing more than a "child-like faith." This is why I have great respect for many Christians, who may have very little intellect or worldly wisdom, but who have complete faith and trust that the 'Power greater than ourselves' is simply the "Lord Jesus"

AndyBaker

on Aug 11, 2004

how do I delete this post? it was an accident

Lord Shitzu

on Aug 11, 2004

As an Atheist it is hard for me to speak about an afterlife, at it's most basic I believe there is no afterlife, that when we die, like all matter be decay, and eventually are reused by the universe, nothing of the "we" that were remains.

There are however some idealogies like the one I stated above which, while I dislike traditional western religion, make me think about what it is that makes us who we are.

The biggest problem I personally encounter in my disbelief of gods, afterlives, and souls, is the concept of individuality and consciousness. On a biological level, my brain makes me who I am. It creates, stores, catalogues, and distributes my thoughts. At the same time, if someone were to clone me, said clone with identical biology would not be me, it would not see the world through my eyes. It would see the world through its own eyes, biologically identical to me.

Just because another "me" existed, doesn't mean that I would control that other me, or get a special slit vision for both of us. I have trouble coming up with a coherent theory about where individual perception comes in, generally I would tie it to the brain, always to the brain, which in theory could be connected to a whole nother body, or even a machine, and still allow me to be myself. But then why do two biologically identical brains create completely different people? And if the controlling substance is some spirit, some soul, then where does it come from, and where does it go?

I don't believe a clone, be it a sheep or a human, would be "soulless," like a puppet, but then where does this soul come from?

I guess this isn't exactly on-topic, and I apologize if I hijacked your post a little, it was not my intent, I just got to thinking too much for my own good.

wuxiaomao

on Aug 12, 2004

Why should there be a Hell at all

Its all about choice..God wanted to give you a choice to follow him or not. Its a well known fact life is a balancing act..good....bad..nice..not nice...ugly beautiful...so why not heaven...hell?

Thats where free will comes in, you choose what you want..

AndyBaker

on Aug 13, 2004

Lord Shitzu, it sounds like you’re talking about that old philosophical chestnut, “the soul”. It’s the intrinsic essence of our self-awareness, (inner-spirit), which looks out at the world, experiences life, and subjectively interprets all that it sees and feels. The soul, or consciousness, is a slippery customer because it transcends inanimate matter.

We can only expect science to “describe” consciousness, rather than “explain” where it came from, ultimately. (This principle applies on a larger scale to the cosmos as a whole. After all, science is unable to explain why the universe exists, rather than nothing at all. In principle, the Infinite is too deep and broad for science to ‘explain’.)

However, our world religions are in the business of providing deeper insights into the nature of the Infinite. According to the wisdom of the ages, not only do we exist for a higher purpose, but also, our ‘inner spirit’ survives death and continues to exist in another dimension, or in another form. It’s difficult to imagine how our self-awareness could exist without a body, but I find it interesting that our Western religions teach that beyond the veil of death, our soul will be clothed in a different kind of body.

Islam, in particular, teaches that after death we will exist in a realm called “Paradise-Heaven”, while Christianity adds to this picture by providing insights such as the following: "When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. ... There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; the beauty that belongs to heavenly bodies is different to the beauty that belongs to earthly bodies." - 1 Corinthians 15.44; 15.40.)

Religious insights must be accepted by faith, of course, (just as belief in a purposeless universe with no kind of Higher Power or meaning must be accepted by faith). But in my opinion, many of the underlying revelations of religion make good sense

For more insights regarding the nature of the bigger picture, and regarding where we might have come from in the beginning, you may be interested to read a blog that I wrote a few weeks ago on the religious thread called, “Were Adam and Eve created in Heaven?” I learned that Islam comes to Christianity’s rescue by describing a clear interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, (Paradise).

Humanity are on a threshold of a new spiritual awakening, in my opinion.

JURookie

on Aug 13, 2004

Ok. Hell is not the result of God's refusal to forgive it is a human's choice to refuse God's forgiveness. You accept it because He offers it freely and when you accept it........Heaven is the awesome reward. To me the choice between an eternity in hell and eternity in Heaven is a no brainer. Why would I not accept the perfect love of God? and get to go to Heaven as well. It think a lot of people end up "thinking" their way into Heaven. Remember, "God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, [28] God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
[29] so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. [30] He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption; [31] therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord." " 1 Cor. 1

Ciao!

JURookie

on Aug 13, 2004

Whoops....I meant "thinking their way into Hell" HA HA whoops

Lord Shitzu

on Aug 13, 2004

AndyBaker, indeed, the dilemma I speak of is that of "soul" or consciousness, and that is what causes the problem for me. The perception of individual consciousness leads towards the idea that "soul" should exist, but as an Atheist, I can't really figure where it comes from, or where it goes.

That is the only question that leads me to interest in spirituality (outside of Western Religion, which I'm a bit soured on for all the OTHER aspects of its dogma), because at this point I can't think of a good scientific view on this issue, and it is one I've never seen discussed. It may be that there are excellent scientific theories/discussions on this matter, I've just never seen them.

Ultimately, if a scientific explanation exists, I would prefer it, because that's just how my mind works, but for the time being, I will have to satisfy myself with the thought that it is a great mystery >8).

I will definitely take a look at the blog you mention, because while not religious, I do find religious discussion interesting, and what you describe sounds quite curious.

AndyBaker

on Aug 14, 2004

Ultimately, if a scientific explanation exists, I would prefer it, because that's just how my mind works

It's how everyone's mind works, really, because we all have a natural desire to "know". There will come a time when we must accept that the mind has limits, however, and that our intellect will hit a brick-wall regarding answers to the greater questions of existence. When that time comes, we must humbly surrender to 'faith' - whether it be faith in the principle that everything is ultimately purposeless, or faith in the principle that life has a deeper meaning, and that this world isn't the be all and end all. Faith happens to be more at home with religion, and I personally believe that some things are secret for a reason. Sometimes we need to turn to our deeper, spiritual intuitions, rather than to the intellect of the head. (There's a difference between the wisdom of the heart and the cleverness of the head, I'm sure.) Lord Shitzu, I think you're more agnostic than atheist.

To me the choice between an eternity in hell and eternity in Heaven is a no brainer. Why would I not accept the perfect love of God?

TeacherCreature, it's important to accept that not everyone has the same feelings or thoughts as yourself, regarding such "choices". There are many people who simply have no passion or interest in God or religion whatsoever. Such people can be very integrated, calm, compassionate and decent people, but they're lack of interest in God, Christ, Allah, or Buddha, is not so much a "choice", but rather the way they are. Just as people who grow up with natural religious inclinations would probably feel more comfortable following the religious tradition in which they were born, so would people who grow up with no religious instincts at all be more inclined to adhere to agnosticism, secularism, scientism, or even atheism. I don't think there's much "choice" in it.

God loves us unconditionally, I'm sure, and we can be content with whoever we are, whether we believe in God or not.

Everett Lee

on Aug 14, 2004

I'm an atheist. My life experience suggests that there is no possibility of a God existing in any shape or form resembling the idea espoused by the monotheistic religions. But I am not afraid of going to hell if I'm wrong. Not because of some wrong-headed certainty that I have got it all right. But because if there is a hell, it was created by some divine being, and I assume it was that very same being that created me. And it would be that being that created me with my faculty of reason. It is my reason that tells me there is no such being. His special gift to me was rationality. If he puts me in hell for using the one gift that sets me apart from the lower animals, well then God can go fuck himself.

Lord Shitzu

on Aug 14, 2004

Lord Shitzu, I think you're more agnostic than atheist.

Blasphemy! >8)

No, I think I am an atheist with some a penchant (or a desire) for the spiritual.

The fact that my beliefs coincide almost 100% with those Everett posted above helps to confirm this >8).

If God exists, yet he would put men in into eternal suffering simply for doubting his existence, which is not obvious to any extent from a scientific standpoint, he does not deserve my respect, and he shall not have it, even if when I die he shows up before me and says: "You were wrong, now kneel before me and repent." Repent for what? Using the brain you gave me according to its natural leaning? No way.

Notice though these words that Everett spoke:

My life experience suggests that there is no possibility of a God existing in any shape or form resembling the idea espoused by the monotheistic religions.

To that extent, I find the idea of a sort of human "hive mind" that makes us share thoughts, feelings, or experiences, intriguing. Some would call that a god, though I personally would call it a computer. To each his own >8).

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